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Build talk:N/A Mark of Pain Nuker
Discussion This build 'is' one of the best DPS in the game, if you can't see why then you must be a Big Ele fan. :Enfeebling Blood > Shadow of Fear. Minor rune > superior rune. Racthoh 15:36, 1 April 2008 (EDT) ::Agreed, Enfeebling Blood is a wonderful skill, especially since the energy buff. However it is of absolutely vital importance to include an AoE hex spell in this build if it is to be run with no back-up hexers (which it will be, 90% of all cases, but still.) This will overload mob hex removal capability and increase the chance of Assassin's Promise sticking (which it should do anyway in 95% of all cases given correct play.) The debate regarding minor versus superior runes is age-old, I can't really go through all that again. Suffice to say it's a minor consideration. I changed the attribute level to accomodate both opinions. <- Oops, I couldn't do that, it would show the level wrong in the skill description. Changed to +1, add to variants. Moloch :::I'm not sure why the build needs a cover for Assassin's Promise? For that matter why would you use a 2 second cast hex as a cover when that leaves a pretty large opening if there is any hex removal present in the mob. Wouldn't the player just go Assassin's Promise -> Barbs since there is a pretty good chance that the target the physicals are wailing on is the one that is going to have the best odds of dying? Racthoh 00:22, 2 April 2008 (EDT) ::::The Shadow of Fear isn't meant as a cover hex, it's meant as a fish hex. It will draw out hex removal skills present in the mob. Without a skill like Shadow of Fear (or Meekness) you're pretty screwed if you get into a place where the monsters have any sort of elite hex removal. --Moloch 07:08, 2 April 2008 (EDT) ::::: Not needed in the large majority of situations enfeebling blood or some other spell is probably going to be better. The point is that if you can't make your hexes stick this build loses more than half its value. Shadow of Fear/Meekness reduces enemy melee damage by 50%. Enfeebling reduces it by 66% excluding the attack skill bonuses. Shadow/Meekness adds to the hex stack, and is generally a lot harder to remove for enemies. It's all well if you can claim that it's not needed "for the large majority of situations", but this is a general build that's designed to be able to counter hard areas. Moloch 05:56, 11 April 2008 (EDT) :make it one of the variants in almost all HM areas it wont be necessary On the above comments, I've been using a Sup rune on my Curse Nec for quite some time and honestly I haven't had many problems. Sure, I have to kite a lot, but what Nec doesn't. I personally prefer Enfeebling Blood over Shadow of Fear, but I'll give Shadow of Fear another look, I may have dismissed this skill too quickly. Personally I like your skillbar on the front page as is, the variants section explain well enough what other skills may be used.-Trvth 17:48, 30 April 2008 (EDT) Ok, will this work with a H/H team? If you put spears on all your heros(which you should), it'll already help alot, but what about the henchies? basically it's just 4 people who arent triggering MoP/barbs, and whose dps sucks anyhow... all i can think of is that you bring all the healing/prot support on your heros, and take melee/ranged(basically, physical) henchies.... especially those who can trigger MoP/barbs at range(aidan, zho, sogolon, ...) any ideas on this?? :basically what you said, although I'd suggest taking useful physical damage healers. (i.e. Not Aidan) ···User_talk:Daññy 20:25, 23 July 2009 (UTC) well, I find aidan to be useful because of Barrage, putting GDW on him is a smash... but yes, there are better henchies^^ too many 2 sec casts ild loose barbs for buffed weaken armor and Shadow of fear for Reckless Haste or Enfeelbing blood. If u must have slower attackspeed Meekness, the sac is well worth the giant area over Shadow of fear since the recharge will be near instant 201.27.158.189 01:11, 13 April 2008 (EDT) :No. Barbs does so much damage, words can't justify it. Shadow of Fear does its job as a bait hex - meekness's sac kind of sucks, but that's why it's a variant. 24.63.206.168 16:08, 14 April 2008 (EDT) Lose Barbs? insane, Barbs is a staple skill on any PVE Curse bar.-Trvth :Fixed casting time consideration with Mindbender. Moloch 20:01, 1 June 2008 (EDT) No Rez? Why is there no rez skill in this build? Especially if it's supposed to be used in hard mode. Enishi :Rigor Mortis isn't really necessary in PvE; you'd probably just take anti-blocking melee (Rangers or Paragons, too). Also, Foul Feast and Signet of Lost Souls pwn. -Mike 21:09, 23 April 2008 (EDT) On the contrary Rigor Mortis is one of the staple skills in the build. Its effectiveness is increased considerably with APromise which reduces the recharge to "whenever you refocus on another target". Rigor Mortis makes ALL attacks unblockable against the target, from EVERYONE, including (but not limited to) henchmen, minions, casters equipped with spears, you name it. It removes blocking from stances, enchantments, spirits, everything. Moloch 10:41, 25 April 2008 (EDT) Agreed, Rigor Mortis is needed in so many areas with this build. If your target is blocking, the MoP, or Barbs you just cast was wasted-Trvth 17:26, 30 April 2008 (EDT) Oh, and Foul Feast and SoLS have absolutely no place in the build. It already has excellent energy-management with both Soul Reaping and AP, and it's an offensive hex build. :Well, I wouldn't normally run a physical team in areas where there is a lot of blocking, anyway, but physicals do tend to have higher DPS because of all the armour-ignoring + damage. Signet of Lost Souls isn't necessary if your energy is always flowing, but Foul Feast is just a nice utility for your team, and it would make a good variant. Also, this build+this or this,a couple Moebius Sins and a Smiter's Boon Monk with Strength of Honor='BIG ASPLOSIONS'. -Mike 12:12, 26 April 2008 (EDT) ::Also, Rez Signet can be replaced with Sunspear Rebirth signet, because you've only got 2 PvE skills on the main bar. -Mike 12:17, 26 April 2008 (EDT) don't we all love seeing such things as this: (-3,400)? [[User:Godliest|'God']][[User_talk:Godliest|'box']] 19px 16:02, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Conglatcremetaion This build has been added to my favorites for the following reason(s): Immensely useful. Funky Necro PvE build with good MM synergy. seb2lazy2login (ʞ1ɐʇ) 17:58, 1 May 2008 (EDT) Weapon suggestions Nice build, fun to play, but... what's with the silencing spear? Did you mean a cruel one, for 'Finish him'? ...and a HCT focus works better for me than a +1 curses one, faster pussycat kill kill ! Dionyssios 06:13, 11 May 2008 (EDT) :It must be for Technobabble, even though it isn't on the main bar. -Mike 08:57, 11 May 2008 (EDT) :+1/20 is an inscription and there is no focus inscription for HCT, only focus cores for the same. Inscription is HSR (Forget Me Not). Moloch 11:47, 18 May 2008 (EDT) I like signet of twilight as a nice enchantment removal to counter any enchantments (usually monk or dervish) that mitigate the damage from barbs. Otherwise you can end up with a full screen of 0's from barbs. Might be a good variant for certain areas. Technobable Is fine, added it to variants. --'Super Igor' *ninja!!* 09:22, 1 June 2008 (EDT) :Technobabble is fucking horrible. Spending shitloads of energy to Daze a small amount of mindless aton-aton monsters for about 3 seconds at max Asura is crap. --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 09:26, 1 June 2008 (EDT) ::Hey, 6 seconds of Daze against a non-boss. XD Still, 6 seconds of Daze is pretty crappy, but if you're the only one on your team carrying it, it might still be worth it. -Mike 09:29, 1 June 2008 (EDT) :::Unless you've got a load of dervishes or warriors with aoe attacks to interrupt the dazed creatures it's hardly worth dazing them at all. In HM they cast really fast anyway, so it doesn't stop them casting as many spells, either. [[User:Klumpeet|'¬ Klump']][[User_talk:Klumpeet|'eet']] 13:31{GMT}1-06-MMVIII "Guild of Deals" and some other people here have absolutely no fucking clue what they're talking about. Technobabble is a godly skill even at low Asura ranks in this build. It's a spammable AoE daze, it interrupts spell casting by its own damage, and provides a window of opportunity in which to trash enemy healers. Even at a lowly rank 2 it's 4 seconds with a silencing spearhead and that is a LOT of time given the damage output of this build. If you don't interrupt the dazed target that's due to BAD TARGET CALLING. A proper team configuration will have loads of ranged weapons trained on the target. Moloch 19:09, 1 June 2008 (EDT) :Saying that it can "interrupt with its own damage" means that it's an overpriced CoF. 18 second recharge is NOT spammable by any means. 6 seconds of Daze is a big who cares, as it won't really help due to the short duration and "adjacent" is hardly a large AoE. I mean, not even dumbass monsters will crowd that close. Odds are you'll hit one caster with it who now can't spam Flare... GG. --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 19:13, 1 June 2008 (EDT) ::Perhaps you should take a look at the ELITE used in this build. Anyway if anyone wishes to leave out Technobabble it should be switched for Mindbender. There's NO excuse to bring a shitty resurrection skill on this bar when you have access to scrolls. In fact, it would be pretty lame to bring it even if that was not the case. ::Again you should consider the damage output of this build on a properly configured team, which is massive. 4 seconds isn't peanuts when foes are going to drop left and right and the skill is recharged prematurely for each use. Moloch 19:19, 1 June 2008 (EDT) :::Resurrection Signet is a shitty res? A res never hurts a bar, unless it's a PvP Monk. You keep talking like this build is practically "god" while it really is just another pretty workable build. --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 18:00, 2 June 2008 (EDT) ::::Yes, Resurrection Signet is a shitty res for a bar like this in PvE. It is almost never needed and it's one-use, until a morale boost, and this isn't a GvG. As for the "god" comment: The fact is that _in the right team_ _with several physical characters and every character possessing a physical weapon_ this build IS "god" when it comes to damage: there is NO hexer build doing more damage amplification and defense shutdown to a single target, or AoE to adjacent, than this. The biggest strength of the build is the combination of Rigor Mortis and Assassin's Promise. This means that a 4 to 8 second window of Daze is MASSIVELY potent. If you'd actually been running this build yourself, you'd KNOWN that. If adding a one-use resurrection skill to a high-performance hex build means gimping its offensive output and energy utilization, it's a terrible option. :::: ::::Basically, what you have here is a build whose entire credo is recharging potent skills, with an unwieldy recharge time, through the use of Assassin's Promise, which also serves as added energy management for these skills, and you suggest bringing the one skill in the game that Assassin's Promise can't recharge... Moloch 07:04, 3 June 2008 (EDT) :::::It can't recharge Sunspear Rebirth Signet, either. Maybe we should just leave the last slot as optional, and have Technobabble, Mind Bender and Sunspear Rebirth Signet as the options. -Mike 15:32, 3 June 2008 (EDT) ::::::Actually it could use some enchantment removal tool, as well. Signet of Twilight was suggested; I feel Rend Enchantments is a lot stronger. I know I suggested Chilblains but as a matter of fact it's pretty much meh since your damage should be focused anyhow. You could also use Expunge in order to combat Shadowformed/Vowed foes. The exact usage of that is a bit more tricky. However the build is getting a little messy, probably because there are so many options that essentially are all the same concept. Also Shadow of Fear is pretty optional, you can replace that according to area. Moloch 16:43, 3 June 2008 (EDT) The most important skills, since not all monsters block in PvE (Rigor Mortis), attacking isn't as dangerous in caster areas (Shadow of Fear), and Daze is pointless in mostly physical areas (Technobabble), is: Maybe we should use that as the main bar, and list optionals? -Mike 17:09, 3 June 2008 (EDT) :Rigor is universal enough to always be used; few areas do not feature some sort of blocking enemies (be it monk enchantments, ranger and warrior stances, ritualist spirits or whatever). Only five skills also makes the build look very incomplete. I think we could go with two optionals, though. Moloch 17:30, 3 June 2008 (EDT) ::Well, we could at least say that Rigor Mortis can be replaced if you're certain that the area doesn't feature any blocking you'll be faced with. >.> -Mike 17:35, 3 June 2008 (EDT) :::Updated the build, opinions welcome. Moloch 18:13, 3 June 2008 (EDT) ::::TBH, I advise against editing vetted builds. It just hassels admins. Still, Weaken Armor is good. --image:GoD Wario Sig.JPG*[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 18:14, 3 June 2008 (EDT) Spinal Shivers This should defintely be added as a variant. It's such a superb skill, despite possible energy loss. The energy loss can be almost negated if an MM is in the party tho. Spinal really works wonders when facing more than 1 Monk in a group who are cross healing (e.g. Sorrow's, higher end of NF and some places in EotN). Also, I've noticed that MoP causes the target to kite or scatter in HM sometimes. Great build btw, thx for sharing Klefer 06:22, 29 June 2008 (EDT) :The targets should go boom quickly enough for interrupts to hardly be necessary. [[User:Godliest|'God']][[User_talk:Godliest|'box']] 20px 06:51, 29 June 2008 (EDT) You should think of what is used mostly in this build before suggesting such a skill. Spinal Shivers REQUIRES Cold damage, therefore not activating Barbs or Mark of pain. If you need an interupt the 6.xx seconds of Daze (Silence mod) from Technobabble is enough to stop any kind of casting before the target is dead. ::The person who wrote the above is obviously a num nutts bigot. Crappy comment about a good skill and doesn't even know how to sign it (maybe), or was too shy to do so and is not informed about skills. Technobabble WILL NOT affect a boss. Took a break from the game shortly after this was written, therefore v. late edit Klefer 12:21, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :::You use technobabble on an enemy NEXT to the boss, and it will work. Only the target of the spell is checked, and it's AoE. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 15:24, October 22, 2009 (UTC) ::::And if the boss is the only traget left?? A Sin, R or Ele is guaranteed to be able to cause dazed, to mention but a few. Radiation Field would be my choice and beats Techno hands down, but has a high cost. Unless of course you absolutley have to cause daze ;) Klefer 17:34, October 22, 2009 (UTC) Assassin primary variant I'd like to note that it _is_ possible to run this build as an Assassin primary, thus filling a midline caster role if needed. While the build will be a a fair bit weaker it will not be useless by any means. It must, however, be tinkered with a little to compensate for the far weaker energy gain. Suggested skill bar: Mark Nuker / Deadly Arts 12+1+1 Curses 12 You can't use Technobabble - too high cost. Sanctuary+Plague takes up 2 slots but inflict AoE blindness for 6e+10%sac. Running this with some sort of hero hexer or backup AoE hexer is advised and you can't spam as much as the N version. Air is simply to add some more energy management to the build, also will bring a backup for a failed AP (hey, assassins aren't master hexers ;) Moloch 19:02, 3 July 2008 (EDT) :The benefits of playing an Assassin Primary over Necromancer are little to none with this particular build. You get +10 armor, and runes for Assassin's Promise. ~.~ Shadow Sanctuary+Plague Sending is a nice combo, though. [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 19:09, 3 July 2008 (EDT) ::That's the point. There is no benefit. However, it's an option for assassins wanting to fill a midline role if needed, and I haven't seen too many assacaster builds that are PvE-fähig. Moloch 19:18, 3 July 2008 (EDT) Rigor Mortis all ebon sins attacks can't be blocked rite? why rigor again? am i mistaken or wut?--Rella 04:05, 18 July 2008 (EDT) :It's for your other allied physicals, which you wouldn't run this without. So Sins, Dervs, Wars, Paragons and Rangers would all benefit from Rigor Mortis if they aren't already completely unblockable (which they usually aren't in PvE.) [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 09:24, 18 July 2008 (EDT) ::And most importantly, minions. Minions combined with Barbs and MoP just blow up things. --Aubee91 11:22, 18 July 2008 (EDT) :::OoU Minion Masters are good for that. =P [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 11:38, 18 July 2008 (EDT) Barbs MoP and Rigor Mortis go together like Knives and Emo's, well done, great party support.--[[User:Fire Tock|'Phail']] [[User talk:Fire Tock|'Tock']] A guide to this user. 21:58, 18 July 2008 (EDT) :Don't forget the rest of the skills. XD [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 22:14, 18 July 2008 (EDT) Variants GDW, GDA, OoP, and Dark Fury are all good variants, TBH. -- *[[user talk:Guild of Deals|'Wah']] Wah!* 08:03, 19 July 2008 (EDT) :We normally do bring GDW on one character (or even two), but it's not important which one it is. GDW is a gamebreaking spell. It's so good it's silly. GDA is "meh"-quality... you normally pack an SY or two. Dark Fury is fine and always brought in a team configuration as this build will be used in... but it's a spell you can stick on almost any support character with low Blood investment and it doesn't benefit from AP. As for Order of Pain you really can't split points to make it very effective, also better to run it on another character. (Normally bringing it on a hybrid Prot/Blood hero necromancer if it's used, although some swear by D/N, I never saw the point.) I normally don't feel that the extra damage from Order of Pain is that vital anymore. Battle Standard of Honor does (about) the same thing only it affects allies and benefits from AP. Moloch 08:32, 19 July 2008 (EDT) PvE skills Aren't vital to the build, why are they there-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 16:58, 21 July 2008 (EDT) :Because they're the optimal choice. — Skakid 17:03, 21 July 2008 (EDT) ::Why run an Imbagon with "Watch Yourself!"? [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 18:45, 21 July 2008 (EDT) :::Without PvE skills, the only thing that'd really benefit from AP is MoP, which isn't always useful since Adjacent is a really small range. Rigor also has a long recharge but I wouldn't count that since there's not alota block whores in PvE. P A R A S I T I C 18:07, 22 July 2008 (EDT) ::::Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support spam is sexy, too. [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 18:15, 22 July 2008 (EDT) :::::So just to keep it from being half-assed?-- [[User:Relyk|'RELYK' ]] ʞlɐʇ ʎɯ 22:57, 22 July 2008 (EDT) ::::::There are PvE skills in the build because it's a PvE build. Moloch 05:16, 23 July 2008 (EDT) :::::::But if it can be hero'd with not much loss in functionability, it'd be best to take out PvE skills and put them in variants. IF: because I don't know if AP can be hero'd properly. --Thc 21:23, 3 October 2008 (EDT)Describe the build. ::::::::You could do this build with no PvE skills and still end up with a bar that's far more effective and damage-intense than a SS bar for most areas. However, heroes will not use Assassin's Promise in any way as intelligently as a human player - I'd estimate they're about as good or bad with this bar as a hero monk compared to a real player, possibly worse. For example, good luck with them using the "finishers" after Assassin's Promise. Moloch 16:18, 27 November 2008 (EST) Housecleaning Cleaned up build sections a little, added/removed some stuff. Moloch 07:53, 23 July 2008 (EDT) Addition of AoE degen with 8/7/2008 update With the addition of Ulcerous Lungs and the newly buffed Sniper Support (which hasn't been updated on wiki yet, check GW update notes), you can spread -10 degen easily to fleshy creatures, and also do additional damage if any targets are hexed with Mark of Pain. :Well, EVSS isn't AoE anymore, so it won't really spread Bleeding. Suffering might be more reliable. Then again, you could use both, and bring Brambles or an MM with Jagged Bones/Animate Shambling Horror to spread bleeding for lotsa degen. [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 21:47, 3 October 2008 (EDT) Hero Variant I plan to use this instead of the sabway SS nec. First, good idea or bad - e.g., does it work with minimal micro? Second, what would be an optimal bar. I'm thinking this: prof=N/Apromof painmortisbarbsof furybloodSufferingenchantment/build :I really doubt that Heroes will use Assassin's Promise effectively, tbh. You can try, though. =/ [[User:St. Michael|'ــмıкε']][[User_talk:St. Michael|'нaшк']] 15:31, 23 October 2008 (EDT) ::Can't try. my computer is in the fucking shop. can u try thanks i wanna play gw sooooo bad=/--Thc 15:50, 23 October 2008 (EDT) :::Reckless Haste instead of Suffering. Rend Enchantments instead of Rip Enchantment. Assassin's Promise needs to be microed. Moloch 04:49, 17 November 2008 (EST) ::::Hell no, they use AP quite well. --Anonimous. 06:32, 28 November 2008 (EST) Rigor Mortis I wonder how nobody noticed this before, Ebon Sins cannot be blocked so there is little point in Rigor. If your party is physical heavy it will be useful but because it's use is limited it shouldn't be main bar. discuss. --Anonimous. D: 12:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC) :In the build description, it says in combination with a physically oriented team but I agree, it's probably not the best skill for the bar. Spaggage ''talk'' 18:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC) My 2 cents Seems to be the defacto standard. But I tweaked mine with my discord team to add some utility support. This is my bar: Because I find that sometimes the Assassin's Promise hex gets removed and then you're just basically waiting around for your skills to charge. Necrosis is nice, even if you have rank 9 in Sunspear (which is attainable) you deal 86 damage and it's spammable. So if AP gets stripped you can throw in enfeebling blood or a nice cover hex with Parasitic bond and spam Necrosis to help out the team while AP get's recharged. The way I use this build, is to cast MoP first then AP then YMLaD, Vanguard and spam necrosis and the enemy dies just as quick as Finish Him. Plus you get the benefit of spamming Necrosis with just 1 condition or hex unlike Discord. Sometimes I'll throw barbs before I throw in Necrosis to let the Vanguard sin help spam the barbs hex and enfeebling blood is super sexy in HM. --Zen1331 04:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC) :Except proper timing of Finish Him! means that AP will never get stripped, thus making cover hexes and stuff unneeded. Remember, AP is the last hex you cast - not the first. --[[User:Shazam The Assassin|'Shazzy]][[User Talk:Shazam The Assassin|diddles']] 04:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC) Barbs Barbs is largely unneeded, it fits the variants better than the main bar. You want to keep the target that you casted MoP on living as long as it's surrounded by other monsters, but casting Barbs kills that objective. So the only good use to Barbs is finishing off the leftovers. It's better not to take down most bosses first because they can soak more pressure from the team and thus making them great targets for MoP. Moreover, Barbs has a 2 second casting time and with a spear equipped, that leaves you with 20% for 1 second casting time, making it too long to take care of what is left of the mob. Usually before I get to finish casting it the target is dead, or dead a few seconds after, squeezing about 14-42 damage at best. The best way to use Barbs on this build is to cast it on another target; the second priority monster, a monster that is too far from the MoP target. After you're done casting MoP on the first priority target and while the rest of the party is focusing on it you cast Barbs on the second priority target and switch back to your MoP target to finish it off. Still, after doing that it doesn't raise the overall damage of your build by that much, but you're even decreasing the potential damage by not taking something better suited for your job. Fast, powerful, unstoppable and with no-downtime nuking.--Itamaratson 06:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC) :Barbs+team=damage, it isnt just for avas--Relyk 06:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC) ::And saying you shouldnt kill bosses so mop does more damage is dumb...--Relyk 06:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC) :::Barbs does no such thing as decreasing the damage output. If you need Barbs or not depends on the damage output of the rest of the team. :::If the target under Mark of Pain dies quickly, so much the better. Marked targets induce a lot of scatter fairly quickly. Killing the mark means you get to create a new mark and restart the scatter process. This leads to more, not less, damage. :::If you feel Barbs casts too slow (I often do), bringing Mindbender can solve this to an extent. Moloch 11:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC) ::::A MoP nuker is most effective if you MoP target is taking little damage from a large number of sources - barbs isn't going to help those targets. Where it will help, however, is in the case of leftovers. The casting time of most decent necro skills is horrible, so mindbender is nice idea.Athrun Feya 14:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC) :::::Mindbender nerf obviously breaks that idea, but still, Barbs is very effective when you need to do single target damage. Necromas 23:30, November 22, 2010 (UTC) Playing with just Heroes/Henchmen Take as little backline as you can, just henchies when it will be good enough (IE normal mode) so you can save your hero slots for physicals, take an MM, and then load up on physicals. Paragons work well because spears hit fast, are ranged, and they can help out the other physicals and your crappy hench backline. Try to work in splinter weapon too, especially since splinter hits can also trigger barbs/MoP since it deals (armor ignoring) physical damage. Rangers are the only other good choice for physicals (exception for /P spearchuckers) since melee heroes suck. While bows hit a lot slower than spears they can do splinter barrage and bring pets which provide meatshields and another source of physical damage. Personally I like a best of both worlds approach and take R/P spearchuckers with pets. For henchie physicals just take anything ranged (unless they have kindle arrows or something) and then if any spots are left take warriors/dervs or a mesmer if you need a little more defense. Can't wait for the 7 heroes update so we can make a real hero team build out of this. Necromas 23:30, November 22, 2010 (UTC)